Episode 019 – Tell-Tale Signs That You Are in a Cult – Janja Lalich
Release Date 6 March 2026
Website: www.lalichcenter.org
Cults and high-control groups influence beliefs and fundamentally reshape identity, decision-making, and autonomy. In this episode, Dr. Phil Stieg sits down with sociologist and cult expert Dr. Janja Lalich, Professor and author of Take Back Your Life, to explore the psychology behind cults. Drawing from decades of research as well as her own personal experience of spending a decade in a political cult, she discusses how indoctrination alters a person’s sense of self, why anyone can become vulnerable under the right circumstances, and the road to recovery after leaving.
Phil Stieg
Cults and coercive systems of control can shape how people think, feel, and make decisions. Often. From Jim Jones, David Koresh, and the Branch Davidians, to online conspiracy theory groups and family cults, these systems are more pervasive and psychologically damaging than many of us may suspect.
Today, we are joined by Dr. Janja Lalich, a sociologist and leading authority in cults, coercive control, and systems of undue influence. As Professor Emerita of Sociology at California State University, Chico, Dr. Lalich has spent decades studying how individuals get drawn into high control groups and how they manage to find their way out. Today, we’ll learn about what happens in the brain when belief, identity, and autonomy are manipulated, and what it takes to reclaim independent thinking after indoctrination.
Janja, thank you so much for being with us today.
Janja Lalich
Thank you for having me, Dr. Stieg. I’ve been looking forward to this.
Phil Stieg
I want to bring to everybody’s attention that Janja’s book, “Take Back Your Life”, is in its third edition. For those of you that are deeply interested in understanding cults and cult behavior, I would urge you to pick this up.
So as we start, Janja, why don’t we just have you describe what you mean by a cult?
Janja Lalich
Well, for me, a cult has to have certain characteristics. First of all, there is what’s usually known as the charismatic leader, but really it’s an authoritarian leader who is typically the founder of the belief system and the organization. Secondly, there is what I call the transcendent belief system, which is an ideology. It does not have to be religious. It can be any type of ideology that essentially offers you the answer to everything, to the past, the present, and the future. And along with that, there’s some type of salvation, whether that’s spiritual, political, financial, whatever. So there’s that promise.
And also within the belief system is the idea that you yourself have to go through a transformation in order to qualify to be on the path with this particular leader or guru, whatever you want to call that leader.
And then third and fourth for me are what I call systems of influence and systems of control. Now, the systems of control, and I don’t mean that to be mechanical sounding, but it’s a sociological term. The systems of control are the obvious rules and regulations that you know you have to abide by. And that may have to do with what you have to wear, what you have to eat, how many children you should have or not have, where you work, et cetera.
But actually, for me, it’s the systems of influence that are, in effect, far more powerful because they are often not recognized. Things that tug at your heart, guilt cult, shame, love, all these things that all our lives we respond to.
Phil Stieg
Give me some sense of magnitude here. Do you have any idea how many people are members of cults? Is there any way of knowing?
Janja Lalich
There’s not really a way of knowing. It has to be thousands and thousands. And they’re everywhere. The cults are everywhere. I mean, I belong to a European organization that has conferences every year of countries around Europe and Eastern Europe talking about the cult phenomenon there. I just testified to a hearing in Australia, the Australian Parliament. It did a whole research study on all the cults that are active in Australia. Last year, I spoke at a conference in New Zealand. I mean, they are everywhere.
Phil Stieg
How can you tell the difference between a religion and a cult?
Janja Lalich
Okay. Well, there are several ways. One is, first of all, in a healthy religion, you’re going to be worshiping some type of higher power, whether that’s God or Allah or a tree or whatever. But you’re not expected to worship this human being who’s standing right in front of you. That’s one. Secondly, a healthy religion almost always will have guidelines to live by. So they may say, if somebody new moves into your neighborhood, take them box of cookies and introduce yourselves or whatever it might be. But they’re not checking up on you to see if you’re doing it. Whereas in a cultic religion, they’re going to be telling you what to do and checking on you and making sure you’re doing it.
Another aspect is in a healthy religion, if you leave that religion, people aren’t going to shun you. They aren’t going to walk past you in the grocery store like they don’t know who you are. Whereas in most cultic religions, shun Running is a big part of their modus operandi, right? You leave, you’re gone. You don’t even see your family anymore.
And so I think those are the main things, is just having a healthy perspective on life, where you may believe that your religion is the best religion, but you also recognize that there are other religions, right? Whereas in a cultic religion, they are it, you are it, it is the be all and end all. There is no other religion that’s worth anything.
Phil Stieg
Are all cults violent?
Janja Lalich
Not necessarily violent. Many cults are. I suppose it depends how you call it, how you- Or mean, I guess, also. To find a violent. They are certainly harmful to their members. Some are going to be more physically harmful. They’re obviously emotionally and psychologically harmful. And of course, there is rampant sexual abuse and child sexual abuse, which is one of the more devastating aspects of just being in this field.
Phil Stieg
I would suspect that when an individual gets introduced to a possible cult, they don’t really have a clue that that’s what’s happening to them.
Janja Lalich
One thing that’s important for people to know is that more than two-thirds of followers of cults were recruited by a friend, a family member, or a coworker. So it’s typically someone you know who invites you to that first thing, which is what makes it safe for you, and you don’t always know what’s going to be there.
Phil Stieg
But when you say recruited, do they know they’re being recruited? That’s what I didn’t understand. I suspect they don’t. I want this to be a warning answer to people. What to look for.
Janja Lalich
It’s typically an invitation like, oh, come to the… Guru so and so is going to be in town next week. It’s the only time he’s ever going to be in town. Oh, please come with me to this because it’s just so inspiring. And you’re going to see him up on the stage, and you’re going to see him lift off of his chair in the yellow light or whatever. Or they’re going to say, oh, I’ve been going to these incredible management workshops. They’ve really taught me how to do better at work. I’d like you to come with me to the next one. It’s Saturday afternoon, blah, blah, blah. So it’s a non-threatening sounding invitation by someone to something.
And today, there are cults of all kinds, and they’re of all sizes, and they’re of all belief systems. Many of them now are online. They’re basically everywhere. And so people aren’t always aware of what the signs might be.
So first you get invited to this thing. Now, for most people, they may not even meet or see the leader for quite some time.
And so they’re being brought in and-
Phil Stieg
Groomed.
Janja Lalich
Groomed, trained, and maybe given things to read, going to small meetings with just a handful of people to get them ready for meeting the actual leader.
But as for the leaders who are the founders of these organizations 99% of the time, are typically narcissists. I mean, there are people for whom it’s all about them. They’re controlling. They have that double personality where they can be very charming and nice, and then in a moment, they can switch and be just terrifying. So you never don’t really know quite what to expect. It always keeps you on your toes.
And of course, some of them are what’s known as malignant narcissists. And that’s where the really dangerous stuff comes in. Think about someone like Jim Jones and what happened at the People’s Temple in Guyana, or someone like Keith Reniery, which many New Yorkers are probably familiar with, where he was having the women branded and basically sex trafficking and child abuse. When you have that type of malignant narcissist, there’s almost always going to be some really dangerous harm done to the followers.
Now, the followers, I get asked this a lot, is there one personality type? And no, there is not. Just about anyone can be brought into one of these groups. All of us are, in a sense, seekers. All of us are social animals. We look for ways to make sense of the world.
But people are vulnerable. At many times throughout our lives. We’re vulnerable if our dog just died, if it’s raining out, if we just moved to a new town. So in those moments of vulnerability, which is not an illness, it’s not that there’s something wrong with you. These are very normal human experiences. But in that moment, you’re a little bit, I don’t want to say off balance, but you’re looking for things. You’re wanting to make sense of something.
You’re new in town. You’re making new friends. You might just, unfortunately, step into the wrong thing, right? Right. Or you just graduated from college and somebody says, here, move to this town with me and start going to this church, whatever it might be. In those moments you take that first step. If you take the second step, then they got you and then they know how to work on you.
Phil Stieg
As I understand it, you’ve had personal experience with cults. Yes. Perhaps you could relate that to us. Obviously, it had some impact on your life’s career, so how the two are linked.
Janja Lalich
Okay, so do we have all day? Okay, I’ll try to-
Phil Stieg
Give me the cults for dummies version.
Janja Lalich
Okay, I’ll try to be brief.
I had just moved back to the United States after living in Europe for about four years. It was during my hippie years. And so it was the mid ’70s, and I was actually coming out as a lesbian. I ended up, fortunately, in San Francisco.
I had also been, at various points in my life, politically active and politically aware. Because of some of my past experiences. So here I was in San Francisco in the mid ’70s, where there was a lot of political activity going on, the women’s movement, the Black power movements, every nationalist movement was happening. And I happened to run into someone who invited me, who was a friend of a roommate who invited me to a study group. It went from there. And I ended up joining a group that basically was led by a woman and was politically left. We were going to get rid of racism and sexism and classism. And it all sounded really wonderful. And I knew some of the other people who were joining, and it felt safe.
Well, actually, in the end, I was in that group for 10 years. It was basically very restrictive. We actually spent most of our time sitting around criticizing each other. I was in top leadership most of the time, and and did a lot of really, really crappy things to my fellow comrades. Unfortunately, after about 10 years, we finally had our revolution, so to speak, and we overthrew our leader, and we all got out. So I joined when I was 30. I was 40 something when I got out, and I was basically felt like I was 12 years old.
I moved to New York to get a job, and I felt like here I was in the cultural mecca where I’d seen three movies in 10 years and didn’t know how to talk to people. And it was pretty difficult for quite a while until I got into therapy. Luckily, at the time in New York, there was a cult clinic where the therapist specialized in cult after effects.
I got my head back together, and it took me about 10 years when I made the decision to go to graduate school. And while I was in graduate school, the Heaven’s Gate suicides happened, if people remember of that. And that ended up being fodder for my dissertation. Even before that, I was attending conferences and speaking out and had written several books, even before grad school. And Then after grad school, I got the job teaching. And so I was running support groups, working with families and survivors and going to conferences. And here I am, 40 years later.
Phil Stieg
Yeah. So Again, it leads into what my next question was going to be, which sounds a little bit like you in the sense that, can an individual be a member of a cult and not know it?
I presume at some point, it takes some time to realize this isn’t a constructive group – t his is a destructive group.
Janja Lalich
The way I see it is that everybody who joins a cult at almost any level has doubts and has hesitations. But you’re in an environment where you can’t express those doubts. I use this metaphor of the shelf in the back of your head. Every time something comes up like that, you know you can’t say anything to anyone else, or you’d be criticized or whatever. So you store these things on the back of your head, on the shelf in the back of your head. And one too many things happen, and then that shelf breaks.
When the shelf breaks, you realize, you don’t say suddenly, Oh, I’m in a cult, I got to get out. But you realize something’s wrong, that this is not a safe environment for you. And then if you’re lucky, you can work your way out. So in my case, for example, we were, as I said, very strict and harmful, crazy criticisms all the time of people. And I used to say to myself, and I was in the inner circle, I was around the leader all the time. And I used to say to myself, because we were a Communist organization, I used to say to myself, well, we’re in the tradition of Stalin, and at least we haven’t killed anyone yet.
And that was my rationalization that kept me going until that one too many things happened. And then I knew I had to get out, but I couldn’t get out. I had no money. I had nowhere to go. I had no family left. I had cut off from all my friends who weren’t part of the organization. And I was terrified. I knew they’d come after me.
Phil Stieg
Is that typical of a lot of members of cults then? You get somebody lured They’re buried in. But then if you get them in the appropriate socioeconomic state, they can’t get out.
Janja Lalich
Exactly. Most people in most cults end up working for the cult. They rarely get paid. It’s essentially slave labor.
Phil Stieg
Where does the cult get its money?
Janja Lalich
Well, many cults have businesses as front groups. Many, many cults will prey on wealthy individuals. We had several very wealthy individuals who gave tons of money, who bought us our cars and our vans, who found… Whose money built our publishing house.
We also had many very high-level professional academics who were supporters, who were on our letterhead, which made us look legitimate.–.
Every group is going to have ways that money is fed into them. And then, of course, they have slave labor. So for example, we had a print shop – from design through bindery print shop, and we would bid on jobs. We did jobs for Wells Fargo Bank. We did jobs for all kinds of big companies because we could outbid any other business because we weren’t paying our employees. So money was coming in that way.
Phil Stieg
No labor costs (laugh)
Interstitial theme music
Narrator
If you have a friend or family member who may be struggling to recover from a traumatic experience in a cult, – or are a therapist wanting to learn more about how to treat patients who are cult survivors, you can find a wealth of resources at the “Lalich Center on Cults and Coercion.”
Founded by our guest Dr. Janja Lalich, The Lalich Center is committed to assisting the survivors of cults, (and professionals who care for them) through providing learning resources, workshops, courses, and discussion groups.
They can be found on the web at www.lalichcenter.org
Phil Stieg
Here you are now an expert on this topic, but it took you 10 years to figure out that something was wrong. And you write about this, about the trap that they get you. And I presume that they do that by continually attacking who you are and then dumping in their substitute as to what you should be. It’s brainwashing.
Janja Lalich
Yes. I call it indoctrination just because brainwashing is such a controversial word, but exactly that’s what happens.
The whole point of the indoctrination process is to get rid of you, get rid of your current sense of self, and rebuild you in the image that the cult wants you to be. You do take on a new persona.
A lot of people think all groups are on a compound somewhere in the middle of nowhere. And that’s also one of the myths. So for example, my group, we were headquartered in San Francisco, So it’s not like we were in the middle of nowhere.
But your time gets more and more and more eaten up. We were working easily 18, 20 hour days, seven days a week. You’re probably sleep deprived. In some cases, you may be food deprived, and you just keep going. And if you make a wrong turn, you’re going to get slammed, and then you feel bad because of the pressure.
I would have these thoughts, like I have to get out of here. I have to get out of here. And I would think, but how can I leave my comrades behind? How can I be the dirty rat who leaves and leave them living this horrible, horrible life? It becomes this incredible ethical dilemma – wanting to go out that door, and I couldn’t go out the door. And I used to pray that I’d be killed in a car accident because I couldn’t do it myself.
When I got out When I was a cult, I used to say, How in the hell did I become that person? I hated who I became. I was like, Good God, how did that happen? And it happens little by little by little.
Phil Stieg
You pointed out the patients struggle with memory gaps because they’ve been in a time warp for so long. And then when they get back into life, all of a sudden they have self-doubt and anxiety about, “oh, my God, I missed this or I don’t know that!” It’s got to create terrible internal anxiety.
Janja Lalich
Exactly, it’s terrifying. It really is. I mean, I felt like… I mean, I had a job. I went to work every day, but I felt like I couldn’t cross the street without falling apart. Everything was scary, even though my cult didn’t exist anymore. So you can imagine the people who leave a cult where the cult still is, and they think they might be coming after them. I’ve worked with people who would just go out in the street freaking out, having panic attacks, just from nothing. I mean, it really is. It’s just starting life all over again and learning how to trust yourself and trust others.
Phil Stieg
Are there any warning signs that you can give the listeners for themselves or for their children? What to watch out for?
Janja Lalich
First of all, if you’re thinking of joining something, the most important thing to do is do your research. There’s so much information on the Internet today. While there are certainly cults recruiting on the Internet, there’s probably twice as much information on the Internet about various groups. So if you’re getting invited to something, search around, go into Google and say, Critics of blah, blah, blah, and things will come up, and you’ll get to see what people who’ve been part of that are saying. So do your research.
One thing I’m really adamant about is if it has an “ends justify the means” philosophy, don’t join that group, because what that means is anything goes. They can ask you to do anything because it’s for this greater good, this greater end.
Phil Stieg
So we shouldn’t join a political party! (laugh)
Janja Lalich
Well, not if it’s all-consuming, not if it’s all-consuming.
Again, if it’s trying to use up all your time, if it’s saying, “Don’t hang out with your family anymore”. They’re going to keep you away from your path of righteousness, whatever terminology they use. So if those kinds of demands are being made on you, that’s going to be a sure sign. If there’s no transparency, if you don’t know where the m oney goes. So that’s for someone getting involved.
If you think you know someone who’s involved, you’ll see the signs. The person will start acting differently. They’ll start talking differently. They’ll be more secretive. They’ll either be overwhelmingly trying to recruit you and get you into it, or they’ll be very vague about what they’re doing. They’ll stop doing the things they used to do. No more martial arts, no more playing their guitar, no more. They’re just completely single-minded. Then you know you’ve got someone who’s probably walked into the wrong organization.
Phil Stieg
You touched upon it a little bit, but what are the most common characteristics that make somebody vulnerable to recruitment to a cult?
Janja Lalich
Make somebody vulnerable? Well, I would say someone who is looking to make a difference in life. I’d say most of the people who join are idealists. So people who are looking for a better life or a better church or a better family relationships or a better way to make money. And they’re looking for people who are vulnerable in that way, who are ready to jump into something.
Phil Stieg
But are they individuals then? I got to dig deeper in that. Okay. Is it somebody that doesn’t have a core set of principles?
Janja Lalich
Not necessarily, no.
Phil Stieg
Listen, I don’t care whether it’s extremely liberal or extremely conservative, but there’s somebody that’s really, and it’s not cultish, but they have a very believable set of core principles that’s hard to rock. Would an individual like that be vulnerable?
Janja Lalich
I mean, if somebody is a really hard-nosed, aggressive, self-assured, nasty person, they’re probably not going to get recruited, and the cult probably wouldn’t want them.
Phil Stieg
Well, they don’t even have to be nasty. Can’t they just be self-assured, focused, and have a-
Janja Lalich
Well, I would say, in my case in many aspects of my life, I was self-assured and focused.
I had graduated with honors. I had been on a Fulllright fellowship. I had lived in France for two years. I lived in Spain for four years. I wasn’t like a naive kid. And it was during the Vietnam War period, and I was wanting to do something good with my life, right? I think it’s people like that who you don’t I think you’re vulnerable, but there are so many of these groups out there that it’s so easy to say, I’ll try this.
You know they do what’s called love bombing. You go to the first thing and you’re surrounded by people who tell you how wonderful you are, and it’s so great, and you have such a great experience, and then they invite you back. And so you feel so obligated to say, “Oh, sure, I’ll come back”, because they were so nice to you. It’s one of the principles of Influence. If somebody is nice to you, you feel like you should obligate back, right?
And so this is how it happens. It happens little by little. You don’t realize it. Through their indoctrination process, they are basically changing whatever moral code you came in with. And because you are surrounded by peers who are all going along with this, and you’re not able to protest, because if you do, if you protest too loudly, they’re going to kick you out. So, okay, you’re no longer a member. But mostly, they’re going to they’re going to criticize you in some way that you feel terrible, like you spoke out too soon or, oh, my goodness.
And there’s so much peer pressure. I think the peer pressure has a lot to do with it, because After a certain age, that’s who we respond to. We respond to our friendship network, not our parents anymore, right? So then I think that’s why these groups are groups, because the peer pressure is very powerful. That’s how in the end, you end up adopting the immorality of the cult leader and sacrificing your own morality because you enter this state of mind that I call a founded choice, where you’ve come to believe that there’s absolutely no other way to live.
Phil Stieg
What’s the best approach for a family member when they know that one of their loved ones is getting sucked into a cult?
Janja Lalich
Well, the most important thing is to not confront them, to not say, Oh, honey, I know you’re in a cult. You don’t want to go there. Most cults are very good at doing damage control, so they already have done a lesson on your family is going to try to dissuade you from doing this, and they’re just naysayers, and they’re against your development, whatever.
So what you want to do is try to always stay in touch, never cut them off. They might cut you off, but don’t ever cut them off. But you want to be savvy. I mean, if the commitment looks really, really, really solid and impossible to get through, and you’re a family with a lot of money, you might want to consider redoing your will. You could also use that as an excuse to get the person to come to something, say, well, honey, we have to redo the will. The lawyer wants to meet with the whole family, and it might be a way to get in-person contact.
If you know where they are, but you can’t see them, but you’re able to send them things, send them things that are going to make them happy, like their favorite cookie at Christmas time.
I know this sounds silly, but what you want to do is tug at their emotional heart strings. You want to reawaken that part of themselves that knew you were a nice family, that they actually loved you and that you weren’t harming them. So you want to remind them of good times together, right? Or if you travel, send them a postcard or say, oh, aunt so and so is visiting. She’d love to see you. Can you come over for a coffee? Things that are really, really, really not threatening in any way. That’s the best you can do.
Phil Stieg
So it’s a little bit like dealing with the narcissist is feeding their ego and trying and hoping that in doing that, they say, Oh, my gosh, I missed that.
Janja Lalich
Yes. And then, of course, you could try to do an intervention. Interventions are very costly. They’re risky.
Phil Stieg
What is an intervention? What do you do there?
Janja Lalich
There are a few people left still who do this. Is a leftover from the “de-programming” days, which were not good because they were kidnapped de-programming’s and were against the law. But now they do an intervention based on the alcohol interventions, where you can sit down with the person and try to just talk to them in a non-threatening way. It’s difficult because you have to get the person to agree to come to whatever it is. I’ll give you an example if you’d like.
Phil Stieg
Yeah, because I’m trying to figure how you’d pry them away from the cult.
Janja Lalich
Yeah. I did do a few back in the ’90s just to see what this was all about. I couldn’t keep doing it because it was too stressful because I felt like, who am I to rip the rug out from under somebody?
But anyway, I knew a family whose daughter was in a political cult quite like mine at Berkeley. And their daughter committed suicide. Their other daughter committed suicide. And they were originally from Hawaii. So they were going to have the funeral in Hawaii. And they said the cult was going to let the daughter go to the funeral. And so they called us and said, we want to do the intervention while we’re in Hawaii. And we said, we don’t think that’s a good idea. It’s a funeral. And they said, no, it’s the only way we can make sense of our other daughter’s death.
So they flew us to Hawaii. And after the funeral, they set up a meeting at one of the aunts’ houses. And we were there and she arrived. I’d say we talked to her for maybe 20 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, at most a half an hour, at which point she jumped up, ran out the door, ran down the hill, got into a phone booth. This was the days of phone booths, called her cult, And they bought her an airline ticket. And then she called the police.
And so, meanwhile, we ran down, and we were outside the booth saying, it’s really okay. The police came, and she said, these people are holding me against my will, of which we weren’t. But anyway, so the police drove her to the airport. She got on the plane. She flew back to the cult. And that was that.
Well, about five months later, she left the cult and came home. Because whatever we said to her in those 20 minutes stayed with her. And she started to see things a little differently. So you never know. It can work like that. It can work to be a total disaster, and they just go deeper in.
Phil Stieg
So you’re in your cult. It sounded like you’re in your 30s when you got out of the cult,
Janja Lalich
40
Phil Stieg
40s. Okay, you said you felt like you were 12.
What are the keys to recovery?
Janja Lalich
Well, the keys to recovery are if you can find a therapist who’s familiar with cult aftereffects and who’s going to believe you. Finding a good cult therapist – it’s very, very difficult.
Obviously, I’m going to say my book, Take Back Your Life, which has been selling since the mid ’90s. It’s been updated and revised. It’s really the only in-depth recovery book out there for cult survivors. The important thing, I think at first, is to just chill and don’t just let yourself decompress. And it’s depending on your age and your skill level and all of that, it’s really going to vary by each person. So you just have to slowly start to build a life for yourself again and find safe people to be around.
A lot of people will immediately want to get everybody out, like the rest of their family or people they recruited or whatever, and don’t do that. That’s not your job. Your job is to take care of yourself and to deconstruct, take apart what happened to you, see how they did it, figure out now what do you want to believe in little by little. And that’s the best you can do. Depending on how long you were in the group and what your level of involvement was, it usually takes about five years, I would say, to feel like you know who you are again and you know who you want to be.
The other thing, people often want to become an activist too soon. They want to tell their story to the media or they want to start speaking publicly, don’t do that too soon. Again, so many people crash when they do that, when they’re not fully healed. There’ll always be time to do that. But really, the most important thing is self-care, which I hate that term because it’s “new agey”, but that’s what it’s about.
Phil Stieg
On your website, what information do you think is vital for someone either that’s in a cult and trying to get out or on their way out or a family member? What information can they get?
Janja Lalich
There are different sections of my website, and there’s quite a lot of important information. For example, we were talking earlier about therapists. There is a checklist for how to find a good therapist. There are various handouts and worksheets. There’s a section called the Knowledge Bank, where we’ve been posting various research studies and essays by different people and presentations at conferences and things like that.
We also have a mailing list if people want to sign on because we do things like a few times a year, we do a music workshop for survivors that’s led by a certified music therapist in New York that have been really successful because they’re not the typical therapy. People are often afraid of therapy when they first get out. So, yeah, the website is a great place to find information and to just keep abreast of things for those who are interested.
Phil Stieg
Janja Lalej, thank you so much for writing, Take Back Your Life, and also, for providing hope to the families and to the individuals experiencing this. Pleasure talking with you.
Janja Lalich
Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Steig. I really enjoyed meeting you.
