If someone asks you what you are doing to prepare for your retirement, you might mention a 401K or an IRA, but what you might not realize is that you also need to prepare your mind for this major change in your life as well. Dr. Ross Andel, a gerontologist, who has been studying what happens to our brains when we retire, reveals how it can have serious consequences for our mental health, including cognitive decline and depression. But he will also offer some easy steps and tips to avoid this “retirement trap” and keep our brains active and healthy so that we can fully enjoy that hard-earned nest egg in our golden years.
Guest Bio: https://search.asu.edu/profile/4515840
Phil Stieg
When we think about retirement, we know that it takes financial planning, making sure we have enough money for this next phase of our lives. But what most people don’t realize is that we also need to have a plan for our minds because the changes that occur to our daily lives when we stop working can result in cognitive decline and other significant and even devastating mental health issues. Today, we’ll be speaking with Dr. Ross Andell, who has spent decades studying cognitive aging and retirement. Dr. Ross believes that by planning ahead for our minds as well as our money, we should be able to afford to stop working while still living a fully engaged life.
Ross, thank you for being with us today.
Ross Andel
Well, thank you very much for having me. I look forward to the conversation.
Phil Stieg
Can we really say that retirement, i. e, not going to work, is bad for your brain in the sense of cognitive decline? Is there, in your mind, a specific correlation between not going to work and cognitive decline?
Ross Andel
That’s a great question. I don’t think we can really say that in this predetermined way. It’s more the perception of retirement. Let me just draw on a notion that’s well known to researchers in this area who study work, retirement, and cognition. It’s the idea of mental retirement. What it tells us is that maybe a year or two before people retire, when they make the plan. Yes, I’m going to retire within the next two years. At that point, they disengage from their work to some extent, and they get into this mental retirement or vacation mode right away. Then basically, once they enter their retirement, they’re not ready to re-engage. And that’s a problem. But it’s not everyone. It’s just that if you look at, say, 10,000 people, more of those 10,000 people might fall into this than not. But it’s not everyone, not even close.
Phil
So let’s get some definition of terms out of the way so that as the conversation progresses, people understand what you’re talking about when you refer to Cognitive decline, memory loss, dementia, confusion. We’ll start with cognitive decline.
Ross Andel
Yes, of course. There’s something called the age-related cognitive decline. It’s really the same as a muscular decline. We lose a little bit of muscle tissue, we don’t have the same strength we used to, and we lose some of our physical speed. In a similar way, we also lose some of the connections in the brain. It’s not because of inactivity, it’s just because we age. It’s a natural process of aging.
The loss of those connections leads to slower processing of relevant information. The slow down in processing enough information, then naturally can lead to more forgetfulness. The information doesn’t travel where it needs to go quickly enough to be stored properly. Therefore, it cannot be recalled subsequently. This is not something that would make us impaired. It still allows us to live a normal life. It’s just that maybe sometimes we need a little bit more time to express ourselves. We may need a few repetitions to remember things. We do forget things here and there.
But again, this is not anything that we have to really worry about. It’s the accelerated cognitive decline that worries people. The accelerated decline doesn’t simply include this gradual loss of speed of processing, but it also includes rapid loss of brain cells, neurodegeneration, that subsequently leads to loss of basic cognitive functions.
People enter into a newly defined clinical stage called the mild cognitive impairment that has a very, generally, has a very strong amnestic component, meaning that people start remembering things more poorly, which leads to concerns, and that leads them to visit a clinician, and at that point, it could be diagnosed with mild cognitive impairment.
We see individuals enter this stage but then leave that stage. This mild cognitive decline is just inherently unstable because of the complexity of human brain aging.
Phil Stieg
If there something specific about the act of retiring that triggers this cognitive decline?
Ross Andel
It’s not like when we retire, all of a sudden, the brain falls off the cliff and we do not remember it. We do often lose the structure, and that’s a big one, the routine. the idea of purpose in life. You can Well, I really want to spend more time with my grandkids. But is that enough? Is that enough to replace the structured mental, social, and physical stimulation that you’re getting from having to go to work, being at work, dealing with other people, interacting with other people Are you still being challenged enough
You know you work Monday through Friday. On a Friday, you go, “You know what? I feel like I have accomplished something, and now I need to take two days off”.
As opposed to on Wednesday, you go, “What day is it again? Is it Saturday or is it Monday? Which one is it? They all seem the same to me.” That is really the problem. Are you replacing retirement with something just as meaningful as that work was?
Sometimes the work is just difficult It’s difficult and it burns you out. That’s not what I mean. What I mean is really the ability to reengage yourself and really have that schedule that fills you up. You feel like your life continues to have purpose and that you’re really challenging yourself to accomplish something.
Naturally, we need to remain active for our brain to continue to work at a good level. We cannot simply give up the routine and having the responsibility to finish certain tasks and expect that the brain will continue to function. It will just expect that we’re on a vacation and it’ll go on a vacation itself. Things will just automatically go down the hill. It’s just a natural process. I guess you can refer to it as use it or lose it.
If your brain feels like you’re no longer needing it to do these important tasks and there’s no real purpose on a regular basis, then why waste resources on all these brain connections? Brain sucks out a lot of energy from our body. It will just say, no, maybe let’s devote that energy somewhere else. And I don’t need to work as hard. I don’t need to keep these connections anymore. I’ll just chill a little bit.
Phil Stieg
You’re an expert in this. We’ll just go through a couple of scenarios then. I’m noticing that my verbal memory is a little bit off. Since I retired, what do I do? Give me some one, two, three steps that you would recommend for me to work on my verbal memory. Okay. Aside from setting deadlines.
Ross Andel
Okay, great point. Very good. Well, number one, make sure that you start a podcast. Done? No, not everybody needs to start a podcast, but verbal memory. Okay, so what can stimulate verbal memory? You want to maintain your social contacts, talk to people, set up lunches with friends. Enjoy those. You can just have a casual conversation. You don’t have to play any verbal games. Just enjoy your conversation. Continue to read books. Listen to Ted Talks. Go online and listen to TED Talks, go online and Listen to Ted Talks. Is that three?
Phil Stieg
Yep, you got three. All right. I’ve retired, and all of a sudden, I’m sad. What can I do about sadness/depression?
Ross Andel
Yeah. Make sure that your life continues to have the meaning. You can find that meaning in any type of activity, but we have to continue to find that purpose, why we get up in the morning, Why we continue to push ourselves? Why would you challenge yourself if there’s nothing ahead of you? I think one feeds the other. It’s a chicken and egg. If you lose that purpose, all of a sudden, I can see how one becomes more blue. Then when there is something for you to sink your teeth into, it has potentially the ability to energize and bring you back to having that life energy again and be excited about that day. You want to get up and think, All right, by 10 o’clock, I need to accomplish that. Maybe I need to go get a croissant and read the newspaper. That’s fine. But you have that plan and you do that every day. That’s what you’re going to do. Then by 2: 00 PM, you’ll accomplish something else. Then before dinner, you’ll also do this. That’ll fill your In the evening, you feel like, All right, this has been a good day.
Phil Stieg
Somebody’s forced to retire because of health issues. They didn’t plan on doing it.. A little bit tight on the finances. What measures can you give a person to help deal with that type of stress and anxiety?
Ross Andel
That’s a very important point. There’s so much variety in the circumstances under which people retire. It could be their own health. Sometimes it’s the health of the spouse. Sometimes it’s a circumstance when they have to commit to babysitting. They have to take care of their grandchildren and so on. So the list goes on and on. If it’s for their own health, maybe that’s a positive move to enter retirement. And it can actually lead to positive outcomes as well.
What’s important here is to pay attention to how one fills their days. Don’t think of retirement as now It’s time to do nothing. It’s time to do something. It might just be something else, something that allows more time, more flexibility to take care of family matters, and so on.
Phil Stieg
So hobbies are good.
Ross Andel
Oh, hobbies are wonderful. What you hear about a lot in these day and age is this unretirement idea. When people retire, but then they realize, well, wait a minute. I have all these hobbies. Let me go ahead and get out of this retirement and do something. It doesn’t have to be for money, but they find a second, third career once they retire. That career might be much more fulfilling than their original career that they use to make money. It’s an opportunity. Retirement is an opportunity when you look at it that way. If you’re enjoying your work or you need to work to get to a certain point financially, fine. If you retire, take it as an opportunity to do something else, not an opportunity to relax.
Phil Stieg
That sounds like a real key point is having the positive mental attitude to focus on retirement as an opportunity.
Ross Andel
I agree. It’s a challenge. It is a challenge because if you’re working, the structure is, to a certain extent, given to you. Now, the new challenge is, can you find the intrinsic motivation to do something similar, but also something that you enjoy? You get to choose what it is. You have complete freedom to choose it.
Phil Stieg
You mentioned it a little bit earlier. It gets you through your day, and it made me immediately think, Okay, 6 o’clock rolls around. My husband or my wife passed away. I’m now retired. Loneliness is a major problem around the world, particularly in America right now. What suggestions you have to address that?
Ross Andel
It’s really a tough one. So I have a few. One would be to find clubs, find volunteering opportunities to reconnect. You have to seek those social relationships, at least to some extent. It’s not like we need 25 friends like we needed when we were 18. We don’t need that. But we just need a few good friends around us, someone that we can confide to and spend a good time with, at least here and there. So that’s one option.
Another option, is to use technology to reconnect. Let’s say that you have offspring or you have a brother, sister, some relative who lives across the country somewhere. So of course, you can’t really interact with them in person. But what you could do is schedule lunches. When you’re eating your lunch or when you’re eating your breakfast, see if you can schedule time to talk to them. Let’s say that you like to play chess. You can play chess online today in all kinds of ways.
Let’s say that you like to read books, you can join an online book club as well. It’s a matter of just looking for those opportunities that are out there and taking advantage of them. Of course, again, I don’t want to simplify it. Sometimes it’s not that easy. If a wife or a husband who died recently, there should be time to grieve. So it’s not like someone needs to go out and be all extroverted and happy about life. Take your time. Grieve. But then at some point, when you’re ready, start looking to reconnect with the society. It’s almost a human responsibility to try to push forward and make the best out of the years that you have.
Phil Stieg
I could anticipate that an introverted, quiet person just would deal with retirement probably very effectively because that’s the way they live their life. Or do they actually get more depressed because, oh, my God, now I don’t have the job either. I’m really lonely.
Ross Andel
Yeah, that is a tough one. Again, it just comes back to this heterogeneity of retirement, meaning there’s just so many different pathways which people take at that time. It’s really difficult to put it into one scientific study and come up with this great regression line that describes everyone. People are all over the place. It’s a very difficult topic to study. I can tell you that this introverted person can find a new hobby that actually allows them to connect with a few people that they like, and they can still be introverted but enjoy a new activity.
We have to get up with a purpose at least those five days a week. That would be ideal. So that on Friday afternoon, you feel like, Okay, this has been a good week. Now I’m ready to rest, and I’m ready to get back at it on Monday.
Phil Stieg
So exactly what do you mean by “cognitive reserve” and why is it important?
Ross Andel
In general terms, cognitive reserve is this It means built-in resilience to decline. It lets the brain function despite age or disease. We build it through different ways. I mean, one, obviously, is education. Later in life, we can build We can build it through work, through engaged, complex work. We can build it through mental activities like reading, board games, rich social life. That can It’s a good help as well. It basically builds this fortress between us and impairment.
The stronger the reserve with the greater protection we have from impairment. What we see sometimes is people who are experiencing neurodegeneration. If you look at their imaging of the brain, you will see that There’s a good amount of neurodegeneration, but you might not really see that same decline in their personal lives where they continue to live independently. And cognitively, they seem to be performing quite well as well. It’s really this protection through that built cognitive reserve that allows them to continue to function under these adverse circumstances.
Phil Stieg
What about early retirement? Do you have any comments on that? Is it good for you, bad for you? It doesn’t make a difference as long as you have hobbies?
Ross Andel
Yeah, early retirement, it just, again, depends on reasons. In fact, if I may, let me take this opportunity to mention one relatively recent idea that may or may not be even implementable on a population-wide basis, rather than early retirement, someone could consider intermittent retirement.
If you have the opportunity, see if you can, say, not work in your regular job for, say, six months where you disconnect from work, but you engage in something meaningful. Say that you would apply to your boss for this intermittent retirement. You say, I really would like to learn these skills. My chances of a burnout will go down. Let me go and not work for 6 months. Then I’m going to reengage. Let’s say that you have to commit to work for the same boss for the next three years after that.
Phil Stieg
Yeah. Well, I marvel at my friends that have retired, but then they have these phenomenally high paying consultant jobs or sitting on boards.
Ross Andel
Okay. That’s one possibility. Maybe that’s not open to everyone. It does not have to be a high paid opportunity, but sustainable wage during that time, they would get you through that time and help you to enrich your skills.
Phil Stieg
I like your thought about getting involved. You can be involved with the boys club or church or something like that where you have a purpose in your life and you’re helping people. It would be substantive, positive feedback, I would think, that people would enjoy.
Ross Andel
Yeah, but maybe it’s not the early retirement that you had in mind.
Phil Stieg
I’m not planning on retiring. Somehow, I always want to keep my noodle working. It may be in a different work form, but somehow I feel as though I can mix work with an ample amount of pleasure to keep myself going.
Ross Andel
Well, that’s very fortunate. I think that’s the ideal way to function in this day and age, where the life expectancy has expanded so much. So as long as you enjoy the job, it fulfills you and you can physically and mentally continue. That’s perfect.
Phil Stieg
It’s a significant problem. I mean, I have more friends living into their 90s and 100s. When I was growing up, people were dying at 62 from heart disease and cancer. That’s not happening.
Ross Andel
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, one saying that I always tend to come back to is that aging is not for sissies.
This is a challenge. It’s a real challenge how to continue to live your life fully with all these challenges that aging can bring. Let’s say that you don’t have that job where you can continue to work. You’re just burnt out. You’ve had enough. You can’t just disconnect completely. You can’t give up. You need to find something else to do. You have to.
Phil Stieg
This is your mantra, Ross. I think that you can become an influencer to get people to start taking a positive outlook on aging. Can’t be for sissies!
Ross Andel
Well, okay, you can view it as a positive view, I guess. Yeah. But there are challenges. There are challenges. It’s not that easy to… You feel like… Just the speed of processing alone. When you realize, all right, I’m not thinking as fast as I used to. I forget things here and there. You’re telling me about potential “tip of the tongue” phenomenon where you just can’t find that word here and there. That’s not fun. But we have to push through it. We have to find that purpose in life and continue to try to pursue meaningful tasks on a daily basis.
Phil Stieg
When we talk about engaged lifestyle, is that different than talking about, I’m a member of a book club, I go to lecture I do things and I do crossword puzzles. If there is a difference, then which one’s better?
Ross Andel
All right, Phil. I’m going to take this opportunity to present another point that I would really like to make. It’s that It’s much less important what you actually do as long as you are staying engaged. For a while there was research on this board a game called Sudoku, where there was some evidence in some observational study that engaging in Sudoku, in particular, was the way to reduce the risk of dementia.
There are risks to presenting the information this way. Because what if I don’t like Sudoku? Doesn’t mean that I’m destined to develop dementia pretty soon because I’d say that I like chess. Does it matter? I just don’t see how that It doesn’t matter at all. And let’s say that I don’t like chess and I don’t like Sudoku. What I like to do is I like to hang out with my friends and go to lunch like every other day. That a problem? Not at all.
Phil Stieg
I really wanted you to hammer that home because we’re inundated, I think, with data that, Oh, you got to do this, you got to do this, and you got to do this. That’s not the answer. You got to do it. Not at all. You got to do what you like to do, right?
Ross Andel
Let’s say that I like woodworking, and I don’t have time to do Sudoku, and I don’t have time to go to lunch very often, But I really enjoyed woodworking. Is that a problem? Well, you answer that one for me, Phil, to see.
Phil Stieg
If I wouldn’t cut my thumbs off, I’d probably try woodworking. Oh, yeah, I hear you.
Ross Andel
Again, you don’t need to do that. If there’s a danger of you hurting yourself like that, then don’t do we’re working. But again, the point is it really doesn’t matter as much what one does. What matters is that one stays active, particularly in something that they enjoy.
Phil Stieg
Ross Andel, thank you so much for being with us today. You We’ve unraveled that age is a gift, and we should appreciate it and live each day after retirement with purpose, that aging is not for sissies, and that healthy lifestyles will lead to a healthy brain life and retirement. With those key points, I thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Ross Andel
Phil, my pleasure. Thank you for running this podcast.
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