Phil Stieg
What do you mean by there’s power in play?
Stuart Brown
I think if you look at a life without it, the power differential between the playful person and the non-playful person has societal implications. The non-playful person generally does not have a quality of empathy. There’s more manipulation, there’s more rigidity, there is often more goal-directedness that is fruitful in our culture, but it doesn’t necessarily build society or build a civil community. And this is where a guy like Peter Grey, who’s from Boston, has written beautifully about our hunter-gatherer heritage for a million or more years, where the only way we, as small groups, got along with each other was a differential of power and cooperation by finding means to deal with the young adolescent who was going to be Mr. Wonderful, and everybody made fun of him until he cooperated. So the use of play and the appearance of play over time in a societal communal way appears, at least to Peter, to have been part of our survivability.
Mia Sundstrom
And we talk a lot about strengths of character, right? We talk a lot about grit. We talk about resilience. We talk about empathy and integrity and all of these things. And the big humanitarian question is, how does everyone build these things and then sustain them and use them in the moments when they’re tested the most? And how can we be more values-driven? Well, play is the underlying piece of that puzzle and solution to that. When you play, you learn how it’s practice for life. It’s practice for all of these things so that you can exercise those muscles that give you those strengths of character that you’re going to need in the world.
And that’s where the power comes in. And that’s where a lot of people don’t go one layer deeper behind, you need to be you need to have strong integrity. Well, how do you build that? By playing with someone on the playground and accidentally knocking them over and saying, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to do that. Here, let me help you up.”
I think that’s the piece that we’re trying to get to is we talk so much in so many different arenas about these strengths of character and how important they are for the world, and really, fundamentally, the way they’re built is through play.
Phil Stieg
Can play even make you smarter?
Stuart Brown
I can answer that from the American Academy of Pediatrics. 2018, the American Academy of Pediatrics and a whole group of consultants put out a very detailed paper with some good science saying, Play equals learning, and the play and learning go together. So I think that answers the question. Yes, it does.
Mia Sundstrom
It goes back to the basis of neuroplasticity again, too, right? And how play is this great enabler of neuroplasticity and how that is one of the big keys to learning and making you smarter. And so absolutely, yes.
Lauren
Right. And one more thing to add to that is this concept called neoteny, where humans are fortunate enough to retain juvenile characteristics throughout life. So people might think play equals learning just for children, but in fact, it’s for all of us throughout life, which makes it all the more powerful.
One of the other paradoxes about play, and again, people think, oh, it’s frivolous. It’s going to take you outside of your productivity and the things you really should be doing. But often what will happen if you’re in a play state and you’re pursuing whatever it is that you love, whether that’s a sport or whether that’s writing or painting, if you’re really in that state, you will want to become a master. You will want to get better. So it leads to mastery, even though it’s play. Where you go. Even though it’s play. So it’s, again, a paradox that we continue to have to try to let society understand. And once people do understand that, they’ll have the freedom to really maximize their potential.
Phil Stieg
Briefly, I wanted to get into – Obviously, I don’t want a lot of four-syllable names, but the neuroscience behind what’s going on with play. What happens to your brain on play? Is it the serotonin and the dopamine, or what ?
Stuart Brown
I start with somebody like Jacques Récept, who studied rat play. When you see the difference between the same species bred to play, who are prevented from play. And you look at their prefrontal cortex and other elements of their brain development, there’s a real difference in the players and the non-players. Well, it’s not ethical to begin to think about doing that for humans, but Romanian orphans, for example, and the follow-up studies on severely deprived humans and isolation, for example, so there’s less play. There may be other factors as well that are social in addition to play. But play appears to have an effect on the arborization and the richness of not only the cerebral cortex, but probably other limbic and other connectors within the more super cortex.
Mia Sundstrom
The rat study, I can just expand upon that a little bit. But what Poncept actually did is remove the cortex of a group of rats and then resocialize them to find that they played the same way as the rats that still had their cortex to really discern that play resides in the subcortex. And that because of that, the production of BDNF increases, so it helps with neuroplasticity.
Phil Stieg
BDNF being?
Mia Sundstrom
Brain-derived neurotrophic factor. Which is the basis of learning, right? So when the brain-derived neurotrophic factor is increasing, At least then the amygdala calms down and then all and so and so and so. And so I think that was a huge study. And it’s a bit of a leap to say our brains are exactly the same as rats, but that there are many similarities in basic wiring.
Phil Stieg
But what you’re also saying is that play is involved in the primitive portions of our brain, not in the more highly developed portions of our brain.
Lauren Sundstrom
Right, exactly. And one of the other really interesting things is it has survived evolution, and it’s hard to explain that. When you really look at it, you think, why would this survive evolution, it isn’t obviously helping us survive. It doesn’t help you find food or the basic things that animals need to need to do to survive. But yet here it is. So that’s another really strong testament to the power of this.
Phil Stieg
It must have been fascinating for you, though, to interact with Jane Goodall.
Stuart Brown
Oh, yes.
Phil Stieg
Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that experience.
Stuart Brown
Well, I think it was about 1972 or so, and I read that there were two homicidal chimpanzees, Passion and Palm. And I thought, I wonder if there was anything that Jane could tell me about that. So I wrote her a note, and she wrote back a really elegant, beautiful note and said, These two chimpanzee females were the worst mother, the least playful of any that I observedSo we got together and she and I hit off. And I said, I’m trying to understand more about play. So she said you’re never really going to understand play until you see it in the wild in animals. And she said, I started before chimpanzees with wild dogs. And then I watch chimpanzees. And so much of who they are is established in their early play. So she and I have a long heritage together that’s been very, Very rich for me.
Phil Stieg
When you think about animal play and human play, is it more similar or less similar in your mind?
Stuart Brown
It depends on the animal. I was sitting in a meeting here in Colorado where there were two dogs, And I watched the two dogs approach each other, do a jaw slap, which is a play signal, then do some mutual mouthing, and then get into a little rough and tumble activity. That’s not too different than two four-year-olds on a playground doing some of the same things, semi-punching, rolling with each other. So the patterns that one sees in some animal play, particularly highly social animal, play and us is very similar.
Phil Stieg
You often talk about in your book about the rough and tumble play. Being a boy, I grew up in rough and tumble play with a house full of boys. We had no sisters, unfortunately. Where’s the limit? As a parent, you see your kids rough and tumbling it. When do you know you got to draw the line and say, oh, time to stop?
Stuart Brown
I think there’s a real difference when the activity, the aggressive activity, which is inherent in rough and tumble play, it’s aggression. And it’s a little scary for most adults to see because they’re not something you do as an adult. But if they need to win or be beyond a competitor, to be dominant, to be a little cruel, and if they don’t stay friends, if the wrestler who’s on top can’t be the wrestler on the bottom also, that’s generally not rough and tumble play. That’s aggression. So the difference is subtle, but it’s definite.
Hildy
If we don’t have enough time, is 10 minutes of play helpful, that thing?
Mia Sundstrom
Any play is is better than no play, even if that’s 5 or 10 seconds. Some of the things I just mentioned, if you’re adding a walk back in, if you’re a joke or finding someone who can match your humor and sending them back and forth a series of gifs every morning, if you’re able to If you’re a director and you want to gamify some of the tasks that you do in your every day so that it’s a little bit more exciting, if you’re an artist and you want to doodle while you’re on a call, there are such simple ways that we neglect to just even think are productive. It’s this fallacy that if we don’t have two hours to work out, it’s not enough time. That same thing happens with play. Even five seconds of a passing and seeing a dog and lighting up and connecting with that is enough. So that’s a huge piece of it. And There are so many ways to do it, and it’s all around us if we look for it as well. Just to tap into that is so important.
Hildy
It’s like you don’t have to go off for an hour and play a soccer game.
Lauren Sundstrom
No. In fact, at the beginning, Tom said it’s something to add to your list, and we’d like to say, just incorporate it into the list that you already have. You don’t want to put pressure on yourself. You just want to make it a way of life.
Stuart Brown
Prioritize it.
Hildy
What’s your take on music in the playful life?
Stuart Brown
I think it stimulates the periaqueductal grave. I mean, it stimulates some of the centers that trigger play experience and the The rhythm and the play are a central and emotional centerpiece for many, many people in their entire lives and many cultures.
Mia Sundstrom
The same way that dogs can activate play in us and bring us all together in all that, music does a beautiful job of bringing us together, helping us dissolve our differences, and helping us access the state of play. And what’s cool and unique about music is that happens for the listener and also for the artist. And that’s super unique about music. And it’s just the great connector and the great accessory of play.
Phil Stieg
Given the ubiquitous nature of smartphones, tablets, and computers in our lives now, what are your thoughts and what is the National Institute saying about the overuse of those, the impact it has on play, and maybe trying to turn around and say, how can we make these devices playful?
Stuart Brown
Well, that’s a big order. Take that one on, either one of you?
Phil Stieg
We’ve got three generations here, so I thought I’d get three different opinions.
Mia Sundstrom
Yeah, I’m of the tech generation, right? So I can speak to this having seen it in my peers, really, and in some of the social connections I’ve seen interrupted by the technology. I think it’s important to acknowledge there are some forms of screens that may end up being playful for folks. Video games in a lot of arenas may be playful. You’re missing some of the vestibular motor skills that you get from movement play, but it has a lot of the elements of play in it.
I think there’s a difference when you get to social media, and social media is not play. It is a dopamine hit, but in a lot of times, it’s this addictive escapism stimulus. And the difference between escapism and play is that play has lasting benefits, and escapism has lasting detriments in many cases. And so when we see the technology, it is interrupting our ability to play. It’s hard to tell the difference between escapism and play in a lot of realms. And so the hours spent, sucked into social media that may help you lose track of a sense of time, and all of these things are a dangerous replacement for play, because while they aren’t played, they’re really easy to do and they can sometimes feel like it.
And so I think that there is a huge movement right now about how harmful screens are, particularly for adolescents and particularly for young girls, and how harmful that comparison piece of social media is and the false information that we’re seeing on there. And then there’s this whole a whole new level of the generative AI harm, where chat bots can be this replacement for the social connection. And that is just causing this horrific loneliness and part of this mental health piece of things for this young generation.
And so there seems to be a growing narrative and movement to try and say, Hey, this is really unhealthy and we need to stop it. And the conversation needs to continue past, let’s take away phones and say, what are we doing when we take away some of the screens, particularly in schools. And then to replace that and say, okay, and now they don’t know how to play because they’ve been on their screens, and they’ve been interacting with chat bots. So now let’s also, in conjunction with that, reintroduce play, whether that’s in the playground or through art or through connection and whatnot. So it’s a multi-step process. It’s a huge problem. It’s not going to be solved on the individual level. And there’s a lot of people talking about the technology side of it, but not many talking about the follow-up step to it, which is reintroducing the right types of play.
Phil Stieg
The question to you is, which one of you is going to become the influencer so that we can try to get this concept that a light-hearted, playful spirit would be so much better for us in civilizations than what appears to be going on now?
Stuart Brown
Well, I’m on my way out, so you got to ask these two that question.
Lauren Sundstrom
No, absolutely. We’re And we’re just trying to elevate the conversation. We’re trying to get people to think about this differently, and we’re having some success in surprising ways. There are entities like, for example, Visit California came to us this year, and they said, Hey, we want to promote California as the ultimate playground. Can you back us? Can you make us credible? And so we jumped in and we provided them with a lot of science. I think it made their campaign much more successful. They did have, in fact, a lot of celebrities and big name saying a lot of really good things about play. Great. I mean, however we can do it, we’re happy to do that. So we’re always looking for partners that really understand this message and can help us deliver it in any way that resonates.
Phil Stieg
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that when musicians perform they call it “play” – what’s the role of music in play?
Stuart Brown
I think it stimulates the periaqueductal gray. (laugh) I mean, it stimulates some of the centers that trigger play experience and the The rhythm and the play are a central and emotional centerpiece for many, many people in their entire lives and many cultures.
Mia Sundstrom
The same way that dogs can activate play in us and bring us all together in all that, music does a beautiful job of bringing us together, helping us dissolve our differences, and helping us access the state of play. And what’s cool and unique about music is that happens for the listener and also for the artist. And that’s super unique about music. And it’s just the great connector and the great accessory of play.
Phil Steig
Is any amount of play helpful? How much or how little play is enough?
Mia Sundstrom
Any play is better than no play, even if that’s 5 or 10 seconds. If you’re adding a walk back in, if you’re a joke or finding someone who can match your humor and sending them back and forth a series of gifs every morning, if you’re able to If you’re a director and you want to gamify some of the tasks that you do in your everyday so that it’s a little bit more exciting, if you’re an artist and you want to doodle while you’re on a call, there are such simple ways that we neglect to just even think are productive. It’s this fallacy that if we don’t have two hours to work out, it’s not enough time.
That same thing happens with play. Even five seconds of a passing and seeing a dog and lighting up and connecting with that is enough. So that’s a huge piece of it. And There are so many ways to do it, and it’s all around us if we look for it as well. Just to tap into that is so important.
